I was recently interviewed by Photo District News about working with NGOs and turning them into paying clients.  The full story can be read on the PDN web site here:  http://www.pdnonline.com/pdn/content_display/esearch/e3ifcfd4b7c2c59dd1c0e4c7412eacce9db

The full interview by David Walker is below:

PDN: First, though, when did you leave the Sac Bee, and how long have you been based in Asia?

KG:  I left the staff of The Sacramento Bee in March of 2008.  Sold everything I own, car furniture, etc … and moved to Vietnam to begin my freelance career.  I’ve been based in Saigon since March of 2008.

PDN: Do you work primarily for NGOs, or do you have editorial and commercial clients, too?

KG: I would break my NGO work down to about 20% of my clients.  Some of my editorial clients are: The New York Times, Forbes, Bloomberg Magazine, Wall Street Journal Asia, Vanity Fair amongst others.  Commercial clients include several SE Asia advertising companies and a few hotels … also Johnnie Walker.

PDN: You said you discount your work for NGOs 40% off of US rates–you mean US rates for editorial work shot in Asia? in other words, you have a rate for US edit clients who call you to shoot assignments in Asia, and you charge the NGOs 40% less than that? I just want to be clear about what you mean.

KG: If it is an editorial assignment, meaning it will go in a newsletter or something similar then I will charge an editorial rate.  If it is an advertising shoot then I charge accordingly.  Annual reports get the corporate pricing treatment.  Yes, I give NGO’s a discount of 40%.  But it has to qualify as an NGO.

PDN: How did you arrive at the discount figure? why not 25% or 50%, for instance?

KG: That’s a good question.  It just seemed like an acceptable number to offer.  I can still make enough profit to pay bills and what not, yet also offer a break in pricing for a non-profit company who is trying to do some good in the community.

PDN: In researching an NGO prior to working for them, do you have some way of assessing their finances and their ability to pay you? And if so, does that factor into your negotiations with them?

KG: I don’t really.  I can usually tell right away when I go into their offices if they have money or not.  Many of them do.  They just don’t allocate enough budget to photography and so they play the donations card.  I think that is wrong.  If they can pay then they need to pay.  I honestly do not do too much work with a company unless they can reach my budget.

PDN: Can you describe some of the ways that you educate clients about the value of images? What kinds of arguments do you make to them, for instance?

KG: Yesterday I spoke at a university in Saigon.  It was a “Visual Language” class.  Quite fascinating actually.  Everyone in the class was a Communications major with plans to enter PR, Marketing, Advertising, etc. …  The goal of the course to attempt to educate the young minds as to the importance of the visual product.  I love that this class is offered.  I spoke about how so many potential clients have no idea when it comes to this.  The don’t respect the visual product because they do not understand it.

PDN: Can you describe a particular situation where you brought an NGO client around–perhaps someone who called and said at first they had no budget, or had some money but not nearly enough for you–and then ended up being persuaded to pay a fee that was more acceptable to you?

KG: Last year, I had an NGO ask me to photograph their annual report.  They wanted me to fly around Vietnam for 4 days to make enough images to fill the entire report.  Of course the first thing out of their mouth was, “We don’t have very much money budgeted for this, but …”.  I sent them a bid based on Fotoquote’s pricing structure and then offered the 40% discount.  Their response was that it was too much for them.  I basically told them that they get what they pay for in this field.  This report will go out to all of their benefactors.  And so I sent them an email stating that it would be in their best interest to raise the budget and focus on quality photography to showcase what they have been doing.  They wrote back with counter bid that was a little bit higher than my original bid saying that they took some funds out of another budget because they agreed this would be important.

PDN: also, I’m interested in this idea of offering something of value to them, particularly an in-depth assignment (or perhaps even a multimedia project): can you give me an example of a pitch you made to an NGO where they did bite on a pitch you made, and paid what you considered a fair (or even good by NGO standards) fee for it?

KG: In August of this year I produced a short 10-minute film about an NGO in Cambodia and the work they do with Vietnamese women being sold into the sex industry.  This was much more indepth then they first wanted.  Originally it was going to be short piece stating what they do.  But to me it look at any of the real issues facing the women they are trying to help.  So I told the stories of three real people and their plight in Cambodia.  I felt this was much stronger because it gave the viewer some one to connect with.  And the pay was fair.  Another NGO wanted portraits of children who will be receiving heart surgeries in the near future funded by their benefactors.  Instead I was able to convince them to allow me to follow one child through his surgery.  The result was much more powerful than any portrait I could have made.  I am certain that his story will help to fund the heart surgeries for future candidates.

PDN: Finally, do you find yourself up against the argument from NGOs that a lot of other photographers are willing to work for free, so why are you asking for so much? And if so, how do you counter that argument in a convincing way? It sounds like you have said, in effect, “Well, you get what you pay for”–but is that convincing? and is there any more you can say to the client to win them over?

KG: I mean if a company is out for some thing free then they won’t want to pay for it.  Plain and simple.  I try not to waste my time with negotiations for that because it’s a losing battle.  There is one major NGO that I know and have had negotiations with that flies photographers all over the world to cover their company.  They are huge.  They own at least two planes.  But they will not pay for photography.  They pay for your travel but that is it.  So I said no.  I don’t need a free trip.  I don’t need to be published with my byline under it for my “portfolio”.  I need to make a living as I am a professional photographer.

Now the clients who are willing to pay a small amount are usually willing to pay an acceptable price at the end, I find.  But again they need to be educated.  The argument that you get what you pay for does work when they have used past photographers which turned out to be disastrous for them.  But the other argument that I really push is that if you have a good visual product then the people will connect with it more which will translate into donations.  It’s that simple.  You can go snap a few photographs of a crying child or a smiling one and slap it on the cover of a brochure or web site, but it’s very cliché and who is it even helping?  But if you tell real stories, not just in words but in photos, well then the viewer connects with some thing different … some thing special.

The other photographers that take on these free gigs are polluting the waters a bit for the rest of us, but all I can do is stick to my pricing structure and attempt to educate my clients.

I was recently interviewed by Photo District News about working with NGOs and turning them into paying clients.  The full story can be read on the PDN web site here:  http://www.pdnonline.com/pdn/content_display/esearch/e3ifcfd4b7c2c59dd1c0e4c7412eacce9db The full interview by David Walker is below: PDN: First, though, when did you leave the Sac Bee, and how long have you been based ...